Curiosities:
- The heap of rocks is a witness? - Gen 31:48 Laban said, "This heap is a witness between you and me today." Therefore he named it Galeed
- Again, I'm seeing anthropomorphic verses. Do Christians believe that Jacob wrestled with God? Or do they take this as figurative? Gen 32:22-32
- Dinah's brothers asked for the men who defiled her to be circumcised. Does this mean they are asking them to convert? Gen 34:15 Only on this condition will we agree with you—that you will become as we are by every male among you being circumcised.
- I have to say that after they did circumcise everyone, it was quite disturbing that the brothers went and killed all the men in the town when they knew they would be healing. Talk about killing a fly with a sledge hammer!
- Is this verse at least partially the basis of Israel being named a land for the Jews in present day? Gen 35:12 The land that I gave to Abraham and Isaac I will give to you, and I will give the land to your offspring after you."
- I'm starting to think fornication isn't even considered a sin in Joseph's time. Here's another example of loose morals Gen 38:2 There Judah saw the daughter of a certain Canaanite whose name was Shua. He took her and went in to her,
- Is it the duty of a man to take in his deceased brother's wife? Do they get married, or just "play house?" Gen 38:8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother’s wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother."
- Onan then tries to prevent pregnancy with her in verse 9, and is put to death in verse 10. Is preventing pregnancy not allowed?
- Why can't Egyptians eat with Hebrews? Gen 43:32 They served him by himself, and them by themselves, and the Egyptians who ate with him by themselves, because the Egyptians could not eat with the Hebrews, for that is an abomination to the Egyptians.
- Another mention of divination from someone I thought was supposed to be a man of God? Gen 44:5 Is it not from this that my lord drinks, and by this that he practices divination? You have done evil in doing this. (The evil is stealing the cup)
- Is Sheol hell?... okay, I looked it up now... Is this where purgatory comes in? Sounds awfully like Greek mythology to me. Gen 44:31 as soon as he sees that the boy is not with us, he will die, and your servants will bring down the gray hairs of your servant our father with sorrow to Sheol.
- Why are shepherds and abomination to Egyptians? Gen 46:34 ... for every shepherd is an abomination to the Egyptians."
Like I said earlier, I really enjoyed reading Joseph's story. I made at note at Gen 39:10 "Joseph has morals!" Call me crazy, but I think a book that is scripture should be teaching us how to live and giving examples of behavior that is right in the sight of God.
This... I can't believe this is actually in the Bible!! She knew she was luring in her father in law! Gen 38:15-18 When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16He turned to her at the roadside and said, "Come, let me come in to you," for he did not know that she was his daughter-in-law. She said, "What will you give me, that you may come in to me?" 17He answered, "I will send you a young goat from the flock." And she said, "If you give me a pledge, until you send it—" 18He said, "What pledge shall I give you?" She replied, "Your signet and your cord and your staff that is in your hand." So he gave them to her and went in to her, and she conceived by him.
- Then in verse 24 Judah was going to put her to death by burning her alive, but then he finds out that she is pregnant with his child and so nothing happens! He doesn't deserve a punishment, but she was about to be burned alive??
I'm actually going to stop here to make reading this easier even though I have gotten into Exodus 4 so far. InshaAllah I'll put together another post very soon with the remainder of my notes.
I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Yes, many shocking things. Oddly I was just talking to Samer about the Judah-Tamar story just this morning! You have to keep in mind this is another culture. An ancient, patriarchal one at that. That would help explain the marrying your brother in law and fathering children thing a bit though admittedly it is strange to our modern ears!
ReplyDeleteI think Egyptians thought shepherds were below them. Kind of like many people in upper edges of society might look at janitors or other blue-collar workers today.
I love Joseph and, yes, he is presented with outstanding morals because he had them. Not everyone else did. Also I wouldn't say fornication was a good thing. It just happened. Realistically a lot of people did it! (They had sexual cults galore with temple prostitutes and all that.) Like it does today. Often it lead to bad consequences. The Bible usually shows instances where immoral behavior lead to certain things happening. Like I said in my previous post, we are taught to learn from others' mistakes so we don't make the same ones.
Finally got around to the second post. Okay. Another long comment which is long...
ReplyDeleteThe heap of rocks is a witness? - Gen 31:48 Laban said, "This heap is a witness between you and me today." Therefore he named it Galeed
One of the definitions of the word 'witness' is 'to bear witness; testify to; give or afford evidence of'. The pillar and the stones were meant to be a reminder of their covenant. So anyone walking by them would know that something of importance happened there, and any of their kin, having been told of the covenant, would see the stones and know that it meant peace between the families.
Again, I'm seeing anthropomorphic verses. Do Christians believe that Jacob wrestled with God? Or do they take this as figurative? Gen 32:22-32
Honestly, that would depend on which Christians you asked. Traditional, orthodox Christians believe that it is true. Jacob physically wrestled with the incarnate God, Christ.
Dinah's brothers asked for the men who defiled her to be circumcised. Does this mean they are asking them to convert? Gen 34:15 Only on this condition will we agree with you—that you will become as we are by every male among you being circumcised.
Ah...not so much. They demanded it so that they could go in and slaughter everyone. They wanted to avenge their family's 'honor', but in doing so they became worse than Shechem and were condemened by their father and by God.
I'm starting to think fornication isn't even considered a sin in Joseph's time. Here's another example of loose morals Gen 38:2 There Judah saw the daughter of a certain Canaanite whose name was Shua. He took her and went in to her,
Oh, it was a sin. People did it anyway. Just like in modern times. Humanity doesn't change that much.
Is it the duty of a man to take in his deceased brother's wife? Do they get married, or just "play house?" Gen 38:8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother’s wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother."
According to Jewish law, yes. In certain circumstances. Deut. 25:5-6 - “When brothers live together, and one of them dies childless, the dead man's wife shall not be allowed to marry an outsider. Her husband's brother must cohabit with her, making her his wife, and thus performing a brother-in-law's duty to her. The first-born son whom she bears will then perpetuate the name of the dead brother, so that his name will not be obliterated from Israel.” But it's not a marriage, marriage. This is only allowed to happen when the husband (the brother who has died), has left no surviving children (male or female) born of any relationship, not just the one with the wife in question. The brother who performs yibbum must be born of the same father as the deceased brother and he must have been born before the death of his brother. The living brother cannot be barred from marrying the widow for any other reasons – them being related in a manner other than in-laws, for example. And both the living brother and the widow must be capable of having children. Once yibbum has been performed, the wife may remarry and it does not have to be within the same family. So long as the child she bears from the yibbum carries the name of her deceased husband. There is also the option of the brother declining to marry the widow to carry on his deceased brothers' name. This is called halizah. This also frees the widow (or widows) to remarry someone else.
Onan then tries to prevent pregnancy with her in verse 9, and is put to death in verse 10. Is preventing pregnancy not allowed?
ReplyDeleteIt's not so much the prevention of pregnancy, as it was explained to me, but that he was trying to avoid his duties to Tamar and to his brother. He did not have to agree to marry Tamar, but he did, taking onto himself the obligation to give to her the child that would be raised so that his brothers name didn't die out in the tribe.
Why can't Egyptians eat with Hebrews? Gen 43:32 They served him by himself, and them by themselves, and the Egyptians who ate with him by themselves, because the Egyptians could not eat with the Hebrews, for that is an abomination to the Egyptians.
I believe it has to do with the different dietary laws. Each cultures religious traditions regarding food and the offering (or non-offering) of it to their deities was offensive and exclusionary to the other culture.
Another mention of divination from someone I thought was supposed to be a man of God? Gen 44:5 Is it not from this that my lord drinks, and by this that he practices divination? You have done evil in doing this. (The evil is stealing the cup)
But we know that Joseph did not, in fact, practice divination. However, he was maintaining the fiction of how he received his information, and his brothers thought that he was an Egyptian at the time. This does sort of make a problem for your view of Joseph's tale as being without sins, though, if you think about it. If he did, in fact, use the cup for divination, that's forbidden, as magic. Or he lied about doing so, which is also a sin.
Is this where purgatory comes in? Sounds awfully like Greek mythology to me. Gen 44:31
I actually find the concept of Sheol to be quite similar to the Islamic idea of the life of the grave. A place you go to wait for the judgment, after which you go to heaven or hell. Purgatory is similar, true, only the souls there don't have to wait for the second coming. Once they have been cleansed of the stains of their sins they are headed to heaven. A soul bound for hell just goes to hell. There's no waiting room.
Why are shepherds and abomination to Egyptians? Gen 46:34 ... for every shepherd is an abomination to the Egyptians."
I always assumed it was because they looked down on them, thought of them as filthy.
This... I can't believe this is actually in the Bible!! She knew she was luring in her father in law! Gen 38:15-18
Yes. Icky, given a modern frame of mind, but he refused to give her her rights as the widow of his son. And it's honestly no more 'ewww' than a lot of things. They weren't actually related and both were adults. Sort of creeper-y, but it was a different time and place. It's the same thing with child marriage (which has been performed in all cultures, historically), or having sex with slaves. Viewing your wife as property.
Then in verse 24 Judah was going to put her to death by burning her alive, but then he finds out that she is pregnant with his child and so nothing happens! He doesn't deserve a punishment, but she was about to be burned alive??
Tamar alone was going to be killed for the sin of adultery because she did not name the father. If she had named him (and had he been someone other than Judah), he would have been killed as well. He didn't spare her life just because she was pregnant with his child, but because of the revelation that she had not, in fact, sinned. She had taken it into her own hands to correct the wrong that he was doing to her by refusing to give his remaining son to her as was her right and his obligation. It would have been better had he had the son perform halizah, which would have allowed her to seek another husband. As it was, she was trapped in a sort of limbo. No husband, but legally still bound to him and unable to remarry.
Susanne, interesting you mention how their culture wasn't all too different from ours. I think it is a bit scary how humankind keeps making the same mistakes and continues down the same path over and over. We excel in technology, but when it comes to morals, we just don't seem to make progress!
ReplyDeleteAmber, thanks again for your responses!
ReplyDelete"Honestly, that would depend on which Christians you asked. Traditional, orthodox Christians believe that it is true. Jacob physically wrestled with the incarnate God, Christ." So they believe that Jesus was there to wrestle with Jacob? Did he have any other purpose for being "on this Earth" during that time?
About Gen 44:31, I haven't heard any belief of this in modern Christianity (beyond Catholicism). I thought only the "laws" of the Jews were removed from their practice, not doctrine and afterlife concepts.
InshaAllah I'll get my notes in tomorrow for the most updated stuff. The stories have been fairly predictable so I didn't make as many notes. :) I'm up to Exodus 20… feels like really slow going!
So they believe that Jesus was there to wrestle with Jacob? Did he have any other purpose for being "on this Earth" during that time?
ReplyDeleteYes. I've never heard of anyone assigning a specific purpose or mission to His appearances on earth in the Old Testament over all. Only the specific missions of each instance.
The Protestants removed a lot of things (including chunks of the Bible), in reaction to Rome. You've heard the phrase, 'thrown the baby out with the bathwater'? In many instances, that's what they did. They reacted to excesses that were present in Rome, which had strayed from communion with the rest of the Church. But they kept on going, overshooting in the other direction.