First, let me say that I'm not deliberately trying to pull out things to make the Bible look bad, but some things are just too hard to pass by without mentioning. My first surprise when I started reading was that the stories weren't in actual chronological order. As much as the Bible is used by Christians as a book of history, and it is written in that tone as well, I didn't expect the stories to not follow a timeline. Other than that, my overall attitude about what I've read so far is it feels like a history book I would be assigned in high school and I'm scared that one of the many people listed in the lineage are going to be on the test and I will fail based on my lack of being able to memorize the long list of who was the son of who.
I was also surprised at what feels like the lack of good role models thus far and moral stories. I knew there are some pretty sketchy accounts of prophets in the Bible, but I thought I remembered reading about great things they had done when I was in Sunday school as a kid. Now reading through it verbatim, I'm overwhelmed with the lying! Either people are lying about who they are, who their wife is, or what they have done... I'm anxiously awaiting some good moral story to prove to me my Sunday school lessons weren't a lie. I know it's there! I should give credit to Abraham for following God's command and following through though.
Okay... notes:
I was a bit taken aback by the anthropomorphic nature of these verses:
Gen 1:10 ...And God saw that it was good.
Gen 3:8-10 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?" 10And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself."
Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.
Angels are also mentioned in an anthropomorphic fashion:
Gen 19:1-2 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth 2and said, "My lords, please turn aside to your servant’s house and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you may rise up early and go on your way." They said, "No; we will spend the night in the town square."Some curiosities. I just put links to the verses to make it easier on the eyes and save space:
Gen 19:8 Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof."
Sons of God have children with daughters of man? Gen 6:4Things I like:
What is significance of the animals being clean? Gen 8:20
What is the bow in the cloud? Gen 9:13
Why must Isaac's wife be from the land they left? Gen 24:3-6
Why does Rebekah cover herself in front of Isaac but not his servant? Gen 24:65
What exactly is Esau's birthright? Gen 25:32
Is this a support for tithing? Gen 28:22
They use divination?? Gen 30:27
Gen 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years,
I think I like this one because it reminds me of how Allah tells us in the Qur'an that the stars are signs for those who reflect
Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
I think people in the US especially (just because that is largely what I know) need to remember that with dominion comes responsibility. Do people think their actions upon Allah's creation are going to go unnoticed? The Bible goes further in Gen 3:16 mentioning that man has rule over his wife. This seems to be a harsh tone, but I know the meaning that one would give behind it. All I have to say is if this was in the Qur'an, people would be pointing to it left and right saying, "See?! Men can do whatever they want to towards their wives!!"
And the disturbing accounts of the prophets:
Gen 9:20-21 Noah began to be a man of the soil, and he planted a vineyard. 21He drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent.
Gen 19:33-36 Lot's daughters get him drunk so they can sleep with him and get pregnant
Gen 20:12 Besides, she is indeed my sister, the daughter of my father though not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife. (Abraham is speaking in this passage)
Gen 26:9 So Abimelech called Isaac and said, "Behold, she is your wife. How then could you say, 'She is my sister'?" Isaac said to him, "Because I thought, 'Lest I die because of her.'" (Abraham did the same thing: hiding that a woman is his wife. It isn't a huge thing, but the continued lying when convenient became disturbing)
I'm a bit bothered by the account of Isaac and Ishmael. Not that Ishmael needs to be the firstborn because he's the "father of the Arabs" or anything like that, but I don't get how things like Gen 13:16 is ignored, and how was Sarai wronged (see Gen 16:5) when she chose this path? I understand a wife having jealousy, but for Ishmael to be completely ignored as the first born seems extreme.
Whew! I should write the updates quicker because getting that all compiled again was quite a bit of work! And, I'm sure it is a bit to read through. Anyway, inshaAllah I'll get some more reading done over the next few days and share with you all. Tomorrow is very, very busy. InshaAllah I'm not totally fried at the end of it!
Assalam alaykum!
Peace and Blessings!
It's nice reading your honest thoughts. I remember when Samer and I discussed Bible stories how shocked he was by some of them. In the Quran most everyone is perfect! Yes, in Sunday School we are told many admirable traits, but I also recall being told of sins that people committed. They were told in age-appropriate ways, but we learned early on that sin was bad, even "good" people sin and we must learn from others' lives what we should and should not do. Sins were never glorified as what we must do. Rather they were warnings. I like the Bible because it presents people warts and all. I think if I were writing a history of my nation and I wanted to leave a good legacy, I'd try to doctor it up to be prettier. But nope, it's presented in all its good and badness. I can see how it is disturbing to people who expect a good, clean story! :)
ReplyDeleteIt's a good example to me that God gets His will accomplished IN SPITE of our sinfulness. This shows that HE is at work and works through the limitations of humans.
You were surprised that God fellowshiped with His creation?
I think of Ishmael as the firstborn just not the child of the promise. I'm sure you noticed how God promised a child from Sarah, but humanity wanting to work things out on its own tried to bring forth a child in an alternative way. Thus Ishmael was not accepted as the child of the promise. But as you said, God blessed him as well and I agree that this should not be ignored to the extent that it often is! I loved your post. Thanks for sharing what took your attention!
*looks around* Susanne pointed me over here. Hope you don't mind me butting in...
ReplyDeleteI was also surprised at what feels like the lack of good role models thus far and moral stories. I knew there are some pretty sketchy accounts of prophets in the Bible, but I thought I remembered reading about great things they had done when I was in Sunday school as a kid. Now reading through it verbatim, I'm overwhelmed with the lying! Either people are lying about who they are, who their wife is, or what they have done... I'm anxiously awaiting some good moral story to prove to me my Sunday school lessons weren't a lie. I know it's there! I should give credit to Abraham for following God's command and following through though.
The unfortunate thing about Sunday school is that they edit the Bible for the kids. No, really, I mean that. They clean the stories up so as to spare the little kids sensibilities and then the kids wind up with this idealized version of the events and people in the Bible. It's a real disservice to both the Biblical record and the children who will grow up to be adults who have to reconcile what they were taught as children to what the text says.
A big difference between Judaism/Christianity and Islam is that there's no expectation for the Prophets to have been perfect, or even particularly good, people. They were men, and as such they were flawed and they did bad things. It's not about them. It's about God and His plan being played out. It's actually gratifying to many that we have the examples of God using such flawed people to play out His plan for salvation. It means that there's hope for us, as well.
I was a bit taken aback by the anthropomorphic nature of these verses:
Human language is limited. The Bible, while divine revelation, is filtered down to humanity so that we can understand it. I've seen it described, once, as 'baby talk'. Meaning that it is a very simplistic explanation, from God, to humanity.
Gen 1:10 ...And God saw that it was good.
Do you believe that God cannot see, then? Does this verse mean that God has a face and eyes, like humans do? No. It's just the way God's perception is most easily described to humanity.
Gen 3:8-10 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?" 10And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself."
There are various explanations for this verse, ranging from the literal, God really did walk and talk in the Garden, to the highly metaphorical, where no one was in any Garden anyway, since none of this actually happened in this exact manner. I could tell you my beliefs on the subject, but I don't think that it would make any difference.
Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.
The Lord going His way does not mean that God walked off somewhere. It's a method of describing the perception of what happened. God was speaking to Abraham, and then He ceased to do so, for that moment. The writer, nor indeed Abraham, has no way of knowing what God is doing when He is not actively involved with this person or that. We have no concept for what God does in His 'down' time. Or even if He has such a thing. We're stuck perceiving everything through limited senses and knowledge and this is how we try to make sense of the unknowable.
cont. - long comment is long...
ReplyDeleteI say the following, not as a 'well, it's in the Qur'an, too,' moment. But if you have such a problem with anthropomorphic descriptions of God in the Bible, how do you reconcile them when they appear in the Qur'an?
20:5 - “(Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne (of authority).”
28:88 - “And call not, besides Allah, on another god. There is no god but He. Everything (that exists) will perish except His own Face. To Him belongs the Command, and to Him will ye (all) be brought back.”
48:10 - “Verily those who plight their fealty to thee do no less than plight their fealty to Allah: the Hand of Allah is over their hands: then any one who violates his oath, does so to the harm of his own soul, and any one who fulfils what he has covenanted with Allah,- Allah will soon grant him a great Reward.”
Those are just a few I came across flipping through my copy of the Qur'an. As I recall, there are more.
Angels are also mentioned in an anthropomorphic fashion:
Yes. And? Angels do not have a physical form. That does not mean, however, that they cannot appear as anything that they wish to appear as. They take on the seeming of the form best suited to their mission.
Sons of God have children with daughters of man? Gen 6:4
Those who were followers of God, the Jews, married women who were pagans.
What is significance of the animals being clean? Gen 8:20
You are, I'm sure, aware that Jews have animals which are 'clean' and those which are 'unclean'. Only certain animals, invariably the 'clean' animals, were permitted to be sacrificed to God. What is the significance of it? It is a sign, as are all of the sacrifices of Judaism, pointing to the final sacrifice of Christ, for humanity, as He is seen as the perfect lamb, spotless and pure.
What is the bow in the cloud? Gen 9:13
A rainbow.
Why must Isaac's wife be from the land they left? Gen 24:3-6
Because Abraham did not want his son marrying a pagan. He wanted to keep the faith and the bloodline pure. The Jews were not really supposed to intermarry with pagans, as that introduced foreign gods into Jewish households.
Why does Rebekah cover herself in front of Isaac but not his servant? Gen 24:65
To present herself to her new husband as a bride? The brides veiled themselves, on their wedding days. They did not go about veiled daily as a matter of course.
cont...
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly is Esau's birthright? Gen 25:32
A double-portion of his father's estate, he became head of the family when the father died, he had the authority over the women and young men of the family, and he received the father's blessing, which put him into a close and favored covenant with God. It all boils down to this: the first born was expected to become the leader of the family, to carry on in the father's footsteps and lead the family in the way of God. With Esau selling his, he proved that he did not value it as he should have. He was a short sighted and earthly man, which, one may speculate, is why he was not chosen by God, but Jacob was.
Is this a support for tithing? Gen 28:22
Yes.
They use divination?? Gen 30:27
I am...not sure why they translated it that way. My Bible translates the verse like this: “Then Laban said to him, 'If I could find grace in your eyes, I would seek for it divinely, for God has blessed me by your coming.'”
Which I understand to mean that Laban knows that his good fortune is the result of God sending Jacob to him, and for no other reason. He surely did not deserve the good fortune on his own, as he dealt quite falsely with Jacob.
Even the ESV, which, I believe, is the translation that you are using, offers an alternative translation of the line: 'If I have found favor in your sight, I have become rich and the Lord has blessed me because of you.'
I think people in the US especially (just because that is largely what I know) need to remember that with dominion comes responsibility. Do people think their actions upon Allah's creation are going to go unnoticed?
I agree. Some people seem to have the idea that, because the world is temporary, we don't have to take care of it. This is false. We have been given the world as a loan, and a responsibility. God created it and we have trashed it. I think that part of this comes from the incorrect impression that the world is fallen and that humanity is utterly depraved. If the world is 'fallen', they seem to think that nothing can or should be done to correct the state of things, or to take care of what is here. They forget that God declared everything He created to be good. It remains so, in spite of humanity messing things up. More and more, though, you come across different groups of Christians who have realized the error of their thinking and are making efforts to care for the earth they have been given.
The Bible goes further in Gen 3:16 mentioning that man has rule over his wife...All I have to say is if this was in the Qur'an, people would be pointing to it left and right saying, "See?! Men can do whatever they want to towards their wives!!"
Uh, they do. People use verses like this or like the ones that say that women are to be silent in church against Christianity and the Bible all the time. Either to keep women from positions of authority, or to denigrate the Bible itself.
cont. last bit
ReplyDeleteAbraham did the same thing: hiding that a woman is his wife. It isn't a huge thing, but the continued lying when convenient became disturbing)
Again, we have no expectation of the Prophets or the Patriarchs being perfect. They were men, and they erred. God used them anyway. Also, I don't get what the problem is with the story of Lot. I understand the issue with his drunkenness, but he was basically rufied by his daughters. I think the problem lies with them, more than him.
I'm a bit bothered by the account of Isaac and Ishmael. Not that Ishmael needs to be the firstborn because he's the "father of the Arabs" or anything like that, but I don't get how things like Gen 13:16 is ignored, and how was Sarai wronged (see Gen 16:5) when she chose this path? I understand a wife having jealousy, but for Ishmael to be completely ignored as the first born seems extreme.
How is Gen. 13:16 (And I will make your seed as the dust of the earth: that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your seed could also be numbered.) being ignored? Sarah's claim of being wronged is just that, her claim. Yes, she chose the path. She lacked the faith she should have had to trust in God to fulfill His promise through her and Abraham. One could argue that Hagar did, in fact, wrong her by despising her for her barrenness when Hagar became pregnant. But one could easily also say that that is merely human nature, the conflict between these two women as they vied for what earthly power they could have. As for Ishmael being the first born, he was. It doesn't matter, though. God's plan was to work through Isaac, who was born of Sarah and Abraham.
I have noticed, and wondered, at the preference that God seems to show for the second child in the Bible. Though importance is placed on the first born, in a worldly sense, it is often the second child who is chose by God to do great things. I wonder if this is not yet another way in which God attempts to teach us that it is not the things of the world that are ultimately important, but the things of God. While the world, of the time, valued the first born above all else, God bypassed them many times, using that which was 'lesser' in the eyes of the world.
I just wanted to respond and say that inshaAllah I'll be giving time to your responses soon. I have a cranky, teething baby on my hands and we just found out yesterday that we are starting back at square one house hunting. :\
ReplyDeleteSusanne, thank you for stopping by for this. InshaAllah I will continue through, but I know I will not be able to make it as quickly through the Bible as you did through the Qur'an. Time is an inhibiting factor for me.
ReplyDeleteI understand your viewpoint that God works through the sinners. I was talking to my husband the other day about the stories and he questioned who would write these things in their accounts of history? Surely one would not give away their own faults like this, and in most instances there were not witnesses to each event. If then we say that this is the inspired word of God, what lesson are we learning from each of these? Just some thoughts we had…
I'm not sure which section you are referring to when you say "You were surprised that God fellowshiped with His creation?"
InshaAllah this finds you well!
Amber, welcome to my home on the blog-o-sphere. :) I figured this journey of reading through the Bible would probably get a bit of extra attention from my non-Muslim readers, so no worries.
ReplyDeleteAbout the anthropomorphistic verses, I don't have as much of a problem with the symbolism as we see in the Qur'an and I know we need to describe God in ways that humans can understand and relate to. My issues were more with the verses that brought God to the level of humans; walking around with them, wrestling with them, etc. I did include other verses that were anthropomorphistic in nature to exhibit the extent I saw this pattern. Oh, and about the verse "And God saw that it was good", it was more along the lines of questioning how God could make something "bad." Only humans can make things in mistake, not having the foresight to know the outcome of their efforts.
Thank you for your explanations on the questions I had!
The problem I had with Lot was with his daughters, not him. It was still a disturbing Prophetic story… just with him as a victim.
Do you mind if I ask what your sources are for your answers (the question from Gen 24:3-6 and Gen 25:32 come to mind)? I just am wondering since Christianity doesn't have a secondary source, like Islam has with the Hadith collections. This is a honest curiosity and not trying to cut down your comment. :)
Ah. Okay. But how can you be okay with the symbolism/anthropomorphism in the Qur'an and not okay with it used in the same way in the Bible? I can understand Muslim issues with the Incarnation, of course. So is it because you think that people have taken the symbolism too far?
ReplyDeleteI've always understood the verse of God seeing what He made as good not a statement admitting that He could make something bad, which is, of course, impossible, but as a reminder to humanity that God has made everything and that it is, at it's fundamental core, good. It is only humanity that takes a good thing and uses it for bad purposes.
The problem I had with Lot was with his daughters, not him. It was still a disturbing Prophetic story… just with him as a victim.
Oh! Okay. I thought that your problem was like other peoples I had seen, where they thought that the story was insulting to Lot, as though the sin were his in the story.
For the two verses you referenced as an example, I would have to say that my sources are Jewish teaching. Mishnah and halakha. I studied Judaism briefly, so my understanding is limited to certain basic facts in that respect. As for my other answers, I'm studying to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy, so I reference Church teaching.
Durriyyah, no worries! I know you have two little ones and life is much busier for you! You don't have to keep up with the pace that I read the Quran. In fact, just read fewer chapter and post short notes whenever you want. No pressure! :-D I enjoy reading whatever you write. Plus the Bible is much bigger so it should take you more time really.
ReplyDeleteYes,I understand you and your husband would question those things, but the very fact that the bad parts were put in there *by Israelite authors* to me shows that God had a hand in it. Inspiration, if you will. Most people left to their own telling of history like to whitewash the bad parts. Ever read a family Christmas letter and see how overwhelmingly wonderful the year was? :)
" If then we say that this is the inspired word of God, what lesson are we learning from each of these?"
Well, I learn plenty, but I guess not everyone is the same. Two people can read the Bible or Quran and come away with very different "takes." Some see lessons of intolerance and violence and misogyny whereas others see much kinder and tolerant and honorable things.
"I'm not sure which section you are referring to when you say "You were surprised that God fellowshiped with His creation?""
Two out of your three verses about God's anthropomorphic nature dealt with God interacting with His creation. I didn't know if this surprised you about God in the Bible. I find it charming and sweet personally.
Have a good week!